【GCAP・XF9】F-3を語るスレ291.5【日本主導】

2025/12/03(水) 18:05:27.09

ttps://trafficnews.jp/post/575907

ttps://trafficnews.jp/post/90683

日本エンジン開発するために
あんこ抜きでドンガラ、主翼回りを、補強した
P1を1つ作ればいいのに、とは思う

内側のエンジンだけ試作エンジンに
換装したらエンジンストール試験とか
外の2つが働けばいけるんだから

2025/12/03(水) 18:09:51.35

P1の主翼補強できるのなら
外側の取り付けのほうが
エンジン直径にゆとりを保持できて
良いのだろうけれど

2025/12/03(水) 19:51:09.10

日本はX-2にXF5-1を搭載して試験した経験もある
慎重にやれば大丈夫だろ

2025/12/03(水) 20:42:43.39

>>198
それをやるとしたらFTB機として調達予定のC-2じゃない？

2025/12/03(水) 21:19:06.40

ttp://hikokikumo.net/His-Mil-C-1-000-Index.htm

本当にc1の大きさでも
3つ目のエンジンぶら下げてたんだ

2025/12/04(木) 00:23:09.10

ttps://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1p7cey9/the_tempest_fighter_jet_europes_other_battle/

An Italian newspaper article about the Italian international fighter jet venture spends half its word count chatting shit about the French and mocking FCAS for being useless.

ttps://togetter.com/li/1981024

イタリア人、このスレ住人みたいやな
もうすこし陽気さを正しく使おうやw

2025/12/04(木) 00:27:37.14

ネタはさておき

ttps://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/23248823.2023.2287328

イタリアはどうしてFCASを選ばなかったのか
という論文

2025/12/04(木) 00:31:30.49

Until September 2019, Defence Minister, Elisabetta Trenta, believed that the FCAS option should not be ruled out. In her view, the political payoff of contributing to a project developed together with fellow EU member states had been dismissed too easily by the Armed Forces. For this reason, she held high-level meetings with her French and German counterparts during that summer. However, political and technological considerations eventually clashed: by September, she concluded that France and Germany were not willing to partner with Italy, so she quickly decided to adhere to Tempest (Elisabetta Trenta, interview with the authors, 12 December 2022).

大臣は最初はFCASノリでした

2025/12/04(木) 00:33:26.66

The problem with FCAS was that in the Franco-German tandem, Paris (and its companies) had already assumed they could be the lead nation, leaving Rome (again, and its companies) with a marginal role. London, in contrast, was more open to discussing the terms of its cooperation with Italy, so leaving more room for negotiation on the requirements and work share (anonymous interview 1, 24 February 2022).

フランスは主導権を、当然のものとして
イタリアを馬鹿にしてたので

2025/12/04(木) 00:33:45.97

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-12-03/germany-france-spain-to-meet-in-dash-to-save-fighter-jet-plan

仏独西がFCASに関する緊急会合だって
これで決裂したらタイムアウトかな

2025/12/04(木) 00:37:30.59

In fact, she eventually signed a memorandum of understanding with the UK on Tempest, a few days before the end of her term of office.
_φ(･_･
大臣退任直前にブリカス覚書にサイン

2025/12/04(木) 00:38:09.82

会合すべきはダッソーとマクロンでは

2025/12/04(木) 00:40:13.55

フランスも基本的には他国の資金で自国の技術開発をするという考え方
イギリスのテンペストも同じ
イタリアにとっては負担がどれだけ膨らむかわからん上に自国の権利がどれだけあるか不明瞭
それに対して日本は「我が国主導」を主張してるが技術開発を十分してる上に事業化して予算を付けている
イタリアにしてみれば可能な限りの国内生産と改修の自由が確保できれば
英仏のプランに乗るより低リスクで高リターン
例え開発失敗でもイタリアの損失は英仏のプランより遥かに少なくて済む
共通機体の供給相手としては日本が最も都合が良い提携相手

2025/12/04(木) 00:42:35.05

European debt crisis that began in 2008, changes in Italian public opinion and the entry into Parliament of parties with Eurosceptic views (Poli and Valentinier, 2014; Baldini and Giglioli Citation2020). The first Conte government, which led Italy from 2018 to early September 2019, just as the country took the decision to join Tempest, adopted negative attitudes to the Euro and a confrontational stance towards EU institutions (Di Quirico, 2021).

当時イタリアはEUにムカついていたので
仏独に乗らなかった

2025/12/04(木) 00:44:26.70

So, when deciding what to do with the sixth generation aircraft, it is hard to find a well-defined governmental interest: only undersecretary Angelo Tofalo explicitly supported Tempest from the outset (Avionews Citation2018). Trenta and the Prime Minister were more cautious, while others were openly reluctant to invest in advanced weapons altogether.

そもそも当時は高度な兵器に大金を突っ込みたく無かった

2025/12/04(木) 00:45:31.31

For Italy, then, missing the opportunity to join FCAS involved the risk of political exclusion from the most important European defence project.

イタリア的には仏独に喧嘩を売ると
EUから蹴り出される恐怖はあった

2025/12/04(木) 00:49:28.49

Firstly, Leonardo, which is Italy’s largest defence contractor, has established itself as a company in the UK too, so making technology transfer more straightforward (Camera dei deputati Citation2019). Pasquale di Bartolomeo, chief commercial officer of Leonardo, made this point during a hearing at the Italian parliament (Camera dei Deputati Citation2020).

Secondly, for Leonardo, being part of Tempest means working with BAE Systems, which is, in turn, Europe’s largest defence contractor and whose revenue totalled approx. $23 billion in 2020. This means that BAE Systems’ revenue is almost double the revenue of Airbus and six times that of Dassault (Defence News, 2021).

レオナルド的にはブリカスはホーム
BAeはエアバスやダッソーよりだいぶん大きい

2025/12/04(木) 00:50:23.77

F35の時にもブリカスと組んだので
気心知れてるし

2025/12/04(木) 00:52:13.24

Finally, one last consideration that brought together defence companies and the Armed Forces was their assessment of FCAS’ limited chances of success. In fact, since its early phases, FCAS has been facing important limitations that impede progress: these relate, in particular, to lack of clarity concerning the division of labour, and the fact that French stakeholders tend to view FCAS as key to national security in a way that German stakeholders do not

そもそもドイツとフランス
最初から別の方向向いてたから
成功する気がしなかった

せやな

2025/12/04(木) 00:56:53.75

Italy partnered up with the UK and chose Tempest because of an alignment of interests between the Armed Forces and defence firms.

For the Armed Forces, it was the favoured option due to the experience of operational cooperation with the RAF.

For defence firms, it was an opportunity to consolidate an ongoing relationship between Leonardo and BAE systems and achieve a better work share within the consortium.

現場的には訓練とかブリカスと日頃からやってるので
産業側的にはレオナルドとBAEの仲が良かったので

2025/12/04(木) 01:00:24.57

まあ英伊にとってみたら日本と話がついたのは僥倖も僥倖よ
自分たちに全く足りてなかった技術を日本が補ってくれたのだし
そういう意味では英国は貢献してる、さすが三枚舌と呼ばれるだけのことはあるわ

2025/12/04(木) 01:09:30.24

ドイツ人が「ダッソー　最近の改修は
タレスにおんぶに抱っこで本当に
大した技術力あるのか？」
とフランス人に喧嘩を

2025/12/04(木) 01:11:07.33

タレス(トムソンもダッソーも
どうせフランス政府が大株主の
国策企業だから変わらないような

2025/12/04(木) 01:14:15.95

しかし大金出したくなかったのにいつの間にか
「ワークシェア2割は納得できない33%だ」
と、ごねきったイタリアもたいがい
君の逃げ足の速さは前の戦争で知ってるゾ

2025/12/04(木) 01:35:17.44

33%というのは合弁会社への出資比率　
3カ国合意は「財政的・技術的貢献に応じた作業分担」
何で政府間合意を無視した話を言い出す奴が出てくるのだろ？(笑)

https://www.mod.go.jp/j/approach/exchange/area/2023/20231214_gbr_ita-j_b.html

これ読んでレスしろ